+4 temporary increases to Strength: How does it work? FAQ or Errata in the Core book or NPC Codex?

[Zark]

The Question is simple.

Should you get a +3 bonus or a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls when wielding a two handed weapon if you gets a +4 temporary increases to Strength score?

The rules seem to indicate that a temporary increase to Strength should not increase the relevant ability score when it comes to calculate damage it just gives a fixed +1 bonus to damage for every two points of increase to strength.

PRD wrote:

Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
[…]
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

The question was brought up in the thread Enlarge Person - Am I overthinking this?.

Either RAW I Core Book is right and the NPC Codex needs errata since it grants Amiri a +3 to damage or the Core book needs errata.

If Raw turns out right then A TWF character will gain +2 damage on offhand weapons with a +4 giant's belt, until he wears it for 24 hours, in which case that damage increase reduces to +1. This mean it would be better to remove it every 23 hours if you are a TWF character.

Also, Amiri and any other character using a THW will also be greatly affected.

[Zark]

Since the rules say nothing of granting a bonus to strength checks I might just as well ask:

Does a temporary increases to Strength [be it an enhancement bonus, size bonus or moral bonus) grant a bonus to strength checks?

[Skylancer4]

Check the notes in the attribute section of the D20pfsrd.com site. I was just looking at intelligence and there was something about that there which should provide the answer, probably with a link to where it was from/regards to.

[Zark]

The Core rule book and NPC Codex is contradicting each other. We need an answer.

[BigNorseWolf]

You add +1 to the bonus.

A two handed weapon doubles or halves the bonus.

I don't see the contradiction.

[Zark]

Since the rules say nothing of granting a bonus to Carrying Capacity I will also ask:

•Does a temporary increases to Strength (be it an enhancement bonus, size bonus or moral bonus) grants a bonus to Carrying Capacity?

[Zark]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

You add +1 to the bonus.

A two handed weapon doubles or halves the bonus.

I don't see the contradiction.

Edit:

I'm of to work and have no time to write any longer post.
Check out the thread below and read some of Kazaan's posts:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q5cd?Enlarge-Person-Am-I-overthinking-this#29& lt;/p>

[BigNorseWolf]

Saw it. Don't see the contradiction. Your strength score is x points higher. Move on.

[Pupsocket]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Saw it. Don't see the contradiction. Your strength score is x points higher. Move on.

The point is in the rules for temporary ability score bonuses and penalties. Spoiler: A temporary Strangth bonus does not make your Strength higher.

Character examples can have the rules or the math wrong. It happens.

[blahpers]

Zark wrote:

The Core rule book and NPC Codex is contradicting each other. We need an answer.

There's no patience in today's youth.

A temporary increase affects exactly what it says in Core: it adjusts melee attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, CMB, CMD, and Strength-based skill checks. The reason it works this way is not some weird magical effect (though you can treat it that way in-game if you're the GM, I suppose)--it's to make it easy to cast bull's strength and move on without having to recalculate everything you do. Yes, this means there are some silly bits to it, such as not actually being able to lift more, and your offhand weapon actually doing more damage during the first 24 hours of a Strength bonus than the rest.

That's the RAW. Sounds like you don't like the way that works, and that's understandable. I don't care for it either; in my games, we play it that way unless something ridiculous like that comes up, which happens about 1% of the time that someone casts bull's strength or enlarge person or whatever. When it does happen, we temporarily do the permanent-style math, as in those situations immersion is broken more by the rule than the delay.

If there's a mistake in NPC Codex, by all means correct it for your game. It wouldn't be the first time something made it to print with an error.

[Pupsocket]

Zark wrote:

Since the rules say nothing of granting a bonus to strength checks I might just as well ask:

Does a temporary increases to Strength [be it an enhancement bonus, size bonus or moral bonus) grant a bonus to strength checks?

As written, unambiguously no. I can't imagine anyone actually playing like that, though.

[seebs]

The thing is, there is a difference between "gives a +2 bonus to damage" and "modifies an existing bonus by +2". Especially if the 1.5 multiplier is on a specific bonus.

The rule says:
"When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied)."

Your Strength bonus doesn't change with a temporary Strength buff; instead, you get a distinct damage bonus.

[BigNorseWolf]

Pupsocket wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Saw it. Don't see the contradiction. Your strength score is x points higher. Move on.

The point is in the rules for temporary ability score bonuses and penalties. Spoiler: A temporary Strangth bonus does not make your Strength higher.

Character examples can have the rules or the math wrong. It happens.

AGAIN. Not seeing the contradiction.

Post the exact sentences or don't bother hand waving in the general direction of non specifics.

[blahpers]

seebs wrote:

The thing is, there is a difference between "gives a +2 bonus to damage" and "modifies an existing bonus by +2". Especially if the 1.5 multiplier is on a specific bonus.

The rule says:
"When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied)."

Your Strength bonus doesn't change with a temporary Strength buff; instead, you get a distinct damage bonus.

This.

[seebs]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

AGAIN. Not seeing the contradiction.

A +2 bonus to damage from increased strength is not "your strength bonus". The only thing modified by 1.5 when using a 2H weapon is your "strength bonus". Other modifiers to damage are not similarly multiplied.

Amiri, in the NPC codex, has a strength of 18, giving a +4 modifier, and thus +6 to damage with a bastard sword. When raging, she has a temporary +4 to strength, but that does not mean her modifier becomes +6. Rather, it means she gets a +2 to hit and +2 to damage with melee weapons. But the NPC codex shows her at +9, as though the +2 to damage were being multiplied by 1.5.

My guess is that RAI, the +2 to damage should be folded into the strength bonus, but that is not what they actually wrote when they came up with the fancy new language to "fix" certain problems with how temporary stat modifiers work.

[Diego Rossi]

For the damage dealt when using a weapon:

PRD wrote:

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

PRD wrote:

Ability Score Bonuses

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

It is a bonus? yes.

It is based on strength? yes.
So it is multiplied by 1-1/2 multiplier to damage (and the corresponding modifier fo your off hand weapon).

If you first multiply, then add up all the strength modifier to damage and then you round them you avoid problems with having a odd modifier for your permanent strength bonus and your temporary strength bonus and losing 1 point of damage because you have rounded down two times.

About other effects, there is this FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Temporary Ability Score Increases: Do these affect the DCs of monster and PC supernatural abilities based on those ability scores?

Although the description of temporarily ability score bonuses just refers to increasing spell DCs, that is a legacy of some older game terminology not being updated as new features were added to the rules. Temporary ability score increases should affect supernatural ability DCs based on those ability scores, such as a medusa's gaze attack or a witch's hexes.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/20/13

Nothing about carrying capacity, so apparently a temporary bonus to strength don't increase it. There is a important reason for that:

It is done to avoid penalizing the character (yes really!) when they suffer a temporary reduction in strength. If your carrying capacity was modified by temporary effects like Ray of enfeeblement it would be very easy to immobilize a character relying on the sue of heavy armor.

If you have a strength of 20 your light load is 133 lbs, with a strength of 12 (8 point of negative modifier are an average result for a 10th level caster) your maximum load become 130 lbs.

Welcome to the world above heavy encumbrance.

Even with lesser level casters it would become very easy to severely hinder dexterity based builds with moderate strength. They generally hover near the limit of the light encumbrance and have more than +3 as the limit of their dexterity bonus.

Another factor in that decision, probably, is to avoid the need to recalculate what your character can carry every time it use a spell to change shape or use/suffer any other temporary effect that increase/decrease his strength.

[Googleshng]

If something gives you a +4 strength bonus, you treat your strength as being 4 higher than it actually is while that bonus is in effect.

Any further text you read on the matter anywhere is just providing clarifying examples of things to make sure you are adjusting, presented in order to make it easier to make sure you're tweaking everything properly when something's strength gets boosted in the middle of combat, without having to go through the rules and double-check every instance where some calculation is based on strength, and to clarify that it is the actual numerical strength score being increased by +X, not the associated bonus.

So if you have a str of 10, and get a +4 ehancement bonus, you have a str of 14 while that bonus is in effect, changing your strength bonus from +0 to +2, which means, yes, if you are using a two-handed weapon (which adds bonus damage equal to 1.5 times your str bonus), you are going to be doing 3 damage more on each attack than you normally do.

You can also carry more, but this isn't specifically called out, because there isn't a quick and easy formula to express it with, and that generally isn't something you're going to need to worry about missing when quickly double checking things in combat.

[seebs]

A bonus which is based on a change to strength is not "your Strength bonus", which is a number which explicitly doesn't change from temporary changes to Strength. "Your Strength bonus" is a special magic phrase which means "the modifier due to your long-term Strength score, or zero if that modifier was negative". It does not mean "all bonuses you get that are in some way related to changes, whether permanent or temporary, to your Strength".

Now, I think maybe it should, but I'm pretty sure that, RAW, it doesn't.

[Blackstorm]

Guys, keep in mind that rules are not separate, single pieces not interacting with each other. The strength increase, whether temporary or not, effectively ad to your strength score. Carrying capacity is affected as well. The quoted paragraph indicates the bonus to some checks or similar, a 2 handed character deal 1.5 that bonus, and the bonus per se doesn't affect carrying capacity, that instead is modified from the score, not the modifier. Anyway, I don't see contradiction either.

[BigNorseWolf]

Seebs wrote:

A +2 bonus to damage from increased strength is not "your strength bonus".

I don't see that distinction anywhere in the rules.

[Diego Rossi]

Blackstorm wrote:

Guys, keep in mind that rules are not separate, single pieces not interacting with each other. The strength increase, whether temporary or not, effectively ad to your strength score. Carrying capacity is affected as well. The quoted paragraph indicates the bonus to some checks or similar, a 2 handed character deal 1.5 that bonus, and the bonus per se doesn't affect carrying capacity, that instead is modified from the score, not the modifier. Anyway, I don't see contradiction either.

A a strength penalty reduce your carrying capacity?

As show, no for both effects.

[blahpers]

After reading this thread, RAI may differ from RAW on this. Just play it the way that's more fun.

[seebs]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Seebs wrote:

A +2 bonus to damage from increased strength is not "your strength bonus".

I don't see that distinction anywhere in the rules.

I am really not sure how they could have made it any clearer. Your "Strength modifier" and "Strength bonus" are both explicitly defined. We then get the temporary adjustment rules:

Pathfinder wrote:

Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Ability Damage: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The Ability Damage penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. See Ability Score Damage below.

Note the distinction being made here. Permanent bonuses actually increase the relevant ability score. You modify skills and statistics. You might gain "other bonuses". Temporary bonuses, however, do not actually increase your strength; instead, they give you a bonus.

Note, they do not increase your bonus. They give you a bonus.

Imagine that you have Strength 4, and thus, a penalty of -3. You get a bull's strength, giving you a temporary +4. Your strength modifier remains a -3 penalty. However, you now have a +2 bonus on certain things (Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls which rely on strength). It gave you a bonus. It did not change your Strength modifier.

... Of course, RAW is obviously totally broken here. Consider what happens if you take weapon finesse. Bull's strength gives you a flat +2 untyped bonus to melee attack rolls. It doesn't say it does this only if those rolls were using your strength modifier as a to-hit modifier.

So basically, I think what you are describing is almost certainly what they should have said. It may even be what they intended. But so far as I can tell, it's not RAW.

[seebs]

Blackstorm wrote:

Guys, keep in mind that rules are not separate, single pieces not interacting with each other. The strength increase, whether temporary or not, effectively ad to your strength score. Carrying capacity is affected as well.

[citation needed]

This contradicts the description of temporary-vs-permanent ability bonuses.

[Skylancer4]

seebs wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Seebs wrote:

A +2 bonus to damage from increased strength is not "your strength bonus".

I don't see that distinction anywhere in the rules.

I am really not sure how they could have made it any clearer. Your "Strength modifier" and "Strength bonus" are both explicitly defined. We then get the temporary adjustment rules:

Pathfinder wrote:

Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls [/i](if they rely on Strength)[/i]. The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Ability Damage: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The Ability Damage penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. See Ability Score Damage below.

......

... Of course, RAW is obviously totally broken here. Consider what happens if you take weapon finesse. Bull's strength gives you a flat +2 untyped bonus to melee attack rolls. It doesn't say it does this only if those rolls were using your strength modifier as a to-hit modifier.

Actually, by taking weapon finesse (and using the feat) your attack roll no longer relies on STR, it relies on DEX, which is in turn covered by "(if they rely on Strength)" part of the statement. Just saying... You even quoted the relevant text in your post.

[DigitalMage]

Googleshng wrote:

If something gives you a +4 strength bonus, you treat your strength as being 4 higher than it actually is while that bonus is in effect.

If you're playing 3.5 I agree (and I do continue to play 3.5), however with PF it all changed (and not for the better IMHO as can be seen from this thread).

My reading of the RAW is that a temporary Strength bonus gives you a flat damage bonus which is not multiplied by 1.5 or 0.5 for two handed or off handed respectively.

It was a pain writing up my stats for my PFS wild shaped Druid as I had to make sure to take that into account.

[Feragore]

Skylancer4 wrote:

Actually, by taking weapon finesse (and using the feat) your attack roll no longer relies on STR, it relies on DEX, which is in turn covered by "(if they rely on Strength)" part of the statement. Just saying... You even quoted the relevant text in your post.

Leading on from that, would a Cat's Grace even do anything for a finessed weapon?

PRD wrote:

Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Weapon Finesse wrote:

...you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.

By RAW, it wouldn't give any attack bonus, much in the same way Strength bonuses are being debated above, as it's established that temporary bonuses do not apply to your ability modifier and instead just give you a limited, similar bonus that only applies to ranged attack rolls.

[Blackstorm]

seebs wrote:

Blackstorm wrote:

Guys, keep in mind that rules are not separate, single pieces not interacting with each other. The strength increase, whether temporary or not, effectively ad to your strength score. Carrying capacity is affected as well.

[citation needed]

This contradicts the description of temporary-vs-permanent ability bonuses.

Right, I don't have citation. But I have always played this way. Seems a no go for me. I mean, if temp strength modifiers wouldn't change carrying capacity, a character that has his strength reduced to 0 from, to say, ray of enfeeblement, wouldn't be affected and wouldn't go down under his own weight.

[Sloanzilla]

After reading this and the enlarge person thread, I've decided that the temporary bonus rules are dumb and I will be ignoring them

[DigitalMage]

Sloanzilla wrote:

After reading this and the enlarge person thread, I've decided that the temporary bonus rules are dumb and I will be ignoring them

I agree, alas as I play PFS I do not have the luxury of ignoring them :(

[Jodokai]

DigitalMage wrote:

Sloanzilla wrote:

After reading this and the enlarge person thread, I've decided that the temporary bonus rules are dumb and I will be ignoring them

I agree, alas as I play PFS I do not have the luxury of ignoring them :(

Read Sean K Reynolds' comments in the thread linked above (and here) and I think you'll see they are intended to be run the way you probably do it anyway.

[James Risner]

Jodokai wrote:

intended to be run the way you probably do it anyway.

Well I believe the intended way is the RAW way:

Core p554: "Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores."

Core p555: "Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores."

Core p555: "Penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die."

Unless the bonus is Temporary, it effects everything that rely on that ability as if the ability were higher or lower. If Temporary, it only changes the things listed. The other changes like uses per day based on an ability are not altered by Temporary bonuses.

[Claxon]

Jodokai wrote:

DigitalMage wrote:

Sloanzilla wrote:

After reading this and the enlarge person thread, I've decided that the temporary bonus rules are dumb and I will be ignoring them

I agree, alas as I play PFS I do not have the luxury of ignoring them :(

Read Sean K Reynolds' comments in the thread linked above (and here) and I think you'll see they are intended to be run the way you probably do it anyway.

Thats pretty much the best answer, though you have to back track up a little to see the full conversation, but that's fine.

It seems the RAI (even if not clear) is really your Str/Dex/Fort/Int/Wis/Cha ability is really higher (albiet temporarily)for pretty much all purposes except when that ability is used to determine the number of times per day something can be used. Which means that strength bonus damage should be multiplied when using a two-handed weapon. I can see this still leaving a little room for interpretation as to whether or not temporary strength bonus/penalties should affect carrying capacity. To that I say, have your group choose one and use it that way from now on.

[Kazaan]

Consider the following:

You have a Natural Armor bonus to AC of +2. This adds +2 to your AC, but doesn't stack with other sources of Natural Armor. But, you can have an Amulet of Natural Armor which gives a "+X enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus". That is a bonus that's adding to a second bonus, as opposed to a stacking of two distinct sources of Natural Armor. No sensible person will argue that if you have +2 Natural Armor and a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor, you have anything other than +4 Natural Armor contributing to your AC.

The damage bonus from a Strength attribute bonus is worded differently, however. Normally, you get a Strength Bonus to Damage rolls. Two points of temporary bonus to your Strength score, however, as written, doesn't give you a +1 bonus to your strength bonus to damage rolls in the same way that the Amulet gives you a +2 bonus to your +2 natural armor bonus to AC. The temporary bonus to the Strength Score just gives you +1 damage, full_stop. This is its own, distinct, and fundamentally un-typed bonus along the lines of the bonus that WSpec and GWSpec give. This is the source of the idea that a bonus to damage from a temporary Strength bonus isn't altered by 2-h/off-hand state of an attack; because it isn't something that's rolled into the bonus that is altered by those factors. Another case in point; Dragon Style lets you factor your Strength Bonus by 1.5 on the first Unarmed Strike you make in a round. So, if your Strength Bonus is +3, your first Unarmed Strike gets +4 (from rounding down). Dragon Ferocity gives you a separate bonus equal to half your Strength modifier which is not rolled into the strength bonus normally given on melee attacks. So you don't say, "Well, my first Unarmed Strike gets 1.5x Str and Ferocity gives me an additional 0.5x Str, so I'm getting 2x Str on my first Unarmed Strike which bumps me from +3 to +6." You say, "I get 1.5x of +3 on my first Unarmed Strike which gives me +4, then I additionally get 0.5x of +3 which gives me +1 netting me +5."

Now, should it be like this regarding temporary bonuses to Strength? I say no, and that it needs an errata to change it to read that a temporary bonus to the Strength score gives you a +1 bonus to your strength bonus to damage rolls. The reason is this; as an untyped and separate bonus, it won't be reduced for off-hand attacks but if it comes from a source that can become a permanent bonus (ie. magic gear), after 24 hours, the bonus be reduced when it gets rolled into your strength modifier and affected by the half strength to damage factor for off-hand attacks; thus a TWF character would be rewarded by taking the belt off once per day to "halt" the progression of the bonus to becoming permanent as they are served better by the temporary bonus than the permanent one. This is unnecessarily tedium and breaks verisimilitude. If the bonus were made a bonus to the strength bonus to damage in the same way that an Amulet of Natural Armor gives a bonus to the natural armor bonus to AC, it would not be an issue.

In other words, "Yo dawg, I heard you like bonuses..."

[seebs]

Pathfinder wrote:

Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength).

Skylancer4 wrote:

Actually, by taking weapon finesse (and using the feat) your attack roll no longer relies on STR, it relies on DEX, which is in turn covered by "(if they rely on Strength)" part of the statement. Just saying... You even quoted the relevant text in your post.

I don't think so. That qualifier only applies to "weapon damage rolls". Look at the rest of the Strength entry; they qualify that some but not all weapon damage rolls rely on strength in general, but never have a similar qualifier for melee attack rolls. It doesn't make sense to apply the parenthetical to all the clauses, so it must apply only to the nearest one.

[seebs]

And yeah, Kazaan's reading (and analysis) match mine. Right now, a temporary strength bonus is better than a permanent one for TWF, and worse for 2-handers. That's ridiculous!

[BigNorseWolf]

Seebs wrote:

I am really not sure how they could have made it any clearer. Your "Strength modifier" and "Strength bonus" are both explicitly defined. We then get the temporary adjustment rules:

If you're going to tell me that something is perfectly clear and explictely defined next time you might want to try quoting something that actually uses the terms you insist are defined. Your entire argument is that a bonus from your strength and your strength bonus aren't the same thing, yet the thing that you use to back that up itself uses slightly different terms

[seebs]

Okay, let's start from the top.

Do you agree that the terms "Strength modifier", "Strength bonus", and "Strength penalty" are all defined by the rules as, respectively:

1. The raw modifier number determined by your Strength score.
2. That number, but only if it is positive, else zero.
3. That number, but only if it is negative, else zero.

Let's just start there. Do you agree with that? If not, can you point to where you feel those terms are defined otherwise?

[Kazaan]

seebs wrote:

Okay, let's start from the top.

Do you agree that the terms "Strength modifier", "Strength bonus", and "Strength penalty" are all defined by the rules as, respectively:

1. The raw modifier number determined by your Strength score.
2. That number, but only if it is positive, else zero.
3. That number, but only if it is negative, else zero.

Let's just start there. Do you agree with that? If not, can you point to where you feel those terms are defined otherwise?

One of the sources of conflation is that "bonus" does double-duty as "bonus from strength" and "bonus to strength". We're basically dealing with specific vs generic terminology here. When Bull's Strength "gives you a +4 strength bonus", should that be interpreted as, whatever your Strength modifier was before, higher or lower than +4, it should be set to +4? Of course not. What it means is that it's giving a "bonus to your Strength Score". So the generic term 'strength bonus' (lower case 's') is a "bonus to your Strength Score" and is then handled depending on whether it is a temporary or permanent bonus. By contrast, 'Strength bonus' (capital 's') is a proper and specific term referring to the Strength Modifier applied to the damage rolls of strength-based weapons. So "+4 Strength Bonus" from Bull's Strength is applying a temporary "bonus to Strength" and a temporary "bonus to Strength" grants you the listed benefits; +2 bonus to Swim and Climb, +2 to attack rolls, and +2 to damage rolls; not a Bonus to the Strength Bonus on Swim and Climb checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls. As SKR said in his entry for the Understatement of the Year Award, "English is a very fluid language."

[James Risner]

Kazaan wrote:

as written, The temporary bonus to the Strength Score just gives you +1 damage, full_stop.

I disagree with your interpretation of the rules, RAW, full_stop.

[seebs]

Kazaan's interpretation matches my reading. The key here is that the +2 damage bonus you get from a +4 temporary bonus to Strength is a bonus given by an effect, it is NOT a modifier to another bonus. Maybe it should be, but as written, it's not.

[BigNorseWolf]

seebs wrote:

Okay, let's start from the top.

Do you agree that the terms "Strength modifier", "Strength bonus", and "Strength penalty" are all defined by the rules as, respectively:

1. The raw modifier number determined by your Strength score.
2. That number, but only if it is positive, else zero.
3. That number, but only if it is negative, else zero.

Let's just start there. Do you agree with that? If not, can you point to where you feel those terms are defined otherwise?

No. Because as technical as you need to be for your argument 1 is not used in those exact words anywhere I can find.

[wraithstrike]

Big NorseWolf

By the rules a +2 bonus would give a +1 modifier to all strength based rolls to include damage even including off-hand attacks and two-handed weapons.<----If you go strictly by RAW.

PRD wrote:

For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

If you were to however add the bonus and use it as an actual increase to the strength score then it you will get a different result, and the rules for using off-hand and two-handed weapons are not rules exceptions so specific trumping general does not apply.

So now I ask by RAW if the my strength score is 20 due to a temporary bonus what damage bonus do I get for off-hand weapons, and two-handed weapons?

[Caineach]

I agree with BNW. This entire thread is people intentionally reading confusion into an area where there isn't any.

[BigNorseWolf]

By the rules a +2 bonus would give a +1 modifier to all strength based rolls to include damage even including off-hand attacks and two-handed weapons.<----If you go strictly by RAW.

While its POSSIBLE to do that by raw, its also possible to read raw as the opposite. Since you know what RAI is, insisting that the raw says something to the contrary is needless and pointless hair splitting.

There may be ways to use the English language so that there's only one possible interpretation, but the pathfinder rules aren't always it.

[Kazaan]

James Risner wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

as written, The temporary bonus to the Strength Score just gives you +1 damage, full_stop.

I disagree with your interpretation of the rules, RAW, full_stop.

And how, pray tell, did you come to your conclusions? I illustrated the process by which I came to a logical conclusion, citing examples of equivalent situations such as with the comparison with natural armor bonuses as well as situations where you have two separate bonuses, both based on Strength, but still both segregated. Your response, however, is just that you disagree. Do you have a citation? Do you have evidence? Do you have examples that make sense? Give me a counter-example that refutes what I've put forth. And keep in mind that I don't approve of the concept that this is how it should be handled; I'm in favor of an errata to change it to reflect how it should have been written in the first place, that it's a bonus to your bonus. If you "disagree" with me, then is that to say you think it is 100% crystal clear as is and needs no change in language?

[seebs]

So what do you think "Strength modifier" is, and where do you think it is defined?

All I can find is:

Quote:

Determine Bonuses

Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.

So, each ability has a modifier.

Quote:

A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.

You apply your character's Strength modifier to:

Melee attack rolls.
Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)
Climb and Swim checks.
Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like).

That sounds to me like the "Strength modifier" is the value computed from plugging your Strength score into the table of ability score -> modifier results.

Look at the difference in Intelligence:

Quote:

Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

You gain skill points equal to some base value, plus your Intelligence modifier, when you gain a level. But temporary bonuses haven't changed your intelligence modifier. (Permanent changes get complicated, because items like a headband of vast intellect give you a fixed set of skills, while a change to your int from levelling up or using tomes gives you new skill points at new levels, and also retroactive skill points.)

The key here is that a temporary bonus to Intelligence does not increase your Intelligence modifier. Same for Strength.

So if your Strength is 14, your Strength modifier is +2. A normal attack with a 1H weapon will do [W]+2 damage, because your Strength modifier is applied to your weapon damage. If you get a +4 temporary bonus to Strength, though, that applies another +2 bonus. But it doesn't increase your existing bonus by +2. It gives you a separate bonus. If it was increasing your existing bonus, it would say "increases your existing bonus". But it doesn't. So when you have that +4, you now do [W]+2+2 damage. Which is similar to [W]+4, but not quite the same, because the new bonus is not your Strength bonus, it's a distinct bonus that you got by some other means.

Note that even if you assert that the new bonus is affected by the same multipliers, that doesn't make it behave the same way. Consider a character whose Strength modifier is currently +3, who gets a +2 temporary Strength bonus (giving them another +1 on weapon damage). Their damage with a 2H sword is now +5, not +6. (+3*1.5)+(+1*1.5) = 5, because each value is rounded.

[wraithstrike]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

By the rules a +2 bonus would give a +1 modifier to all strength based rolls to include damage even including off-hand attacks and two-handed weapons.<----If you go strictly by RAW.

While its POSSIBLE to do that by raw, its also possible to read raw as the opposite. Since you know what RAI is, insisting that the raw says something to the contrary is needless and pointless hair splitting.

There may be ways to use the English language so that there's only one possible interpretation, but the pathfinder rules aren't always it.

I know what the RAI is, but the point being made is that the RAI is not agreeing with the RAW, and that quote is not helping. If I was brand new to the game, I might not know the RAI, so what I know is not actually relevant. There are also many people that do read the RAW as the RAI, and other than me being a GM I can't really argue against them, and if I am not their GM I don't have much of a case at all.

edit: reduced the length of a run on sentence

edit: Something along the line of "Treat your ability score as if it were actually higher for the purpose of determining how it applies to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability..."

That would default back to the normal rules instead of using the "+2=1" which overrules the current rules by RAW.

[seebs]

Caineach wrote:

I agree with BNW. This entire thread is people intentionally reading confusion into an area where there isn't any.

I don't think so. The previous discussions have made it pretty clear that the PF design team came up with this new language to solve a problem, and that there are a lot of loose ends and cases where it is genuinely unclear what they intended.

I have seen people argue both that it is obvious that carrying capacity changes when Strength does, and that it is obvious that it doesn't.

[James Risner]

Kazaan wrote:

100% crystal clear as is and needs no change in language?

Yes it is 100% crystal clear:

"Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."

It makes no distinction about whether it is Temporary or Permanent, if you get +2 to STR you 18 STR goes to 20 STR. It only limits the benefit of Temporary bonuses to things that are stats based to prevent the weird mess that is a STAT based use per day effect taking advantage of an increase to a stat.